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	<title>Comments on: Realists on the counter attack</title>
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	<link>http://mattleifer.info/2006/04/25/realists-on-the-counter-attack/</link>
	<description>Mathematics -- Physics -- Quantum Theory</description>
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		<title>By: mattleifer</title>
		<link>http://mattleifer.info/2006/04/25/realists-on-the-counter-attack/comment-page-1/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>mattleifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 May 2006 23:05:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>That should be Jeffrey Bub.  It is true that his arguments, and those of others such as Alexei Grinbaum and Chris Fuchs, are rather more sophisticated than Zeilinger&#039;s.  Still, I don&#039;t think the Bohmian camp would find much to agree with in what they say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That should be Jeffrey Bub.  It is true that his arguments, and those of others such as Alexei Grinbaum and Chris Fuchs, are rather more sophisticated than Zeilinger&#8217;s.  Still, I don&#8217;t think the Bohmian camp would find much to agree with in what they say.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Bohm</title>
		<link>http://mattleifer.info/2006/04/25/realists-on-the-counter-attack/comment-page-1/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Bohm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 May 2006 08:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Bub Jeffery argues that quantum mechanics is fundamentally a theory about the representation and manipulation of information, not a theory about the mechanics of nonclassical waves or particles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bub Jeffery argues that quantum mechanics is fundamentally a theory about the representation and manipulation of information, not a theory about the mechanics of nonclassical waves or particles.</p>
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		<title>By: David Booth</title>
		<link>http://mattleifer.info/2006/04/25/realists-on-the-counter-attack/comment-page-1/#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>David Booth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 20:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you for the discussion. I traced my original source and found that I had remembered it incorrectly.
Best,
D. B.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for the discussion. I traced my original source and found that I had remembered it incorrectly.<br />
Best,<br />
D. B.</p>
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		<title>By: mattleifer</title>
		<link>http://mattleifer.info/2006/04/25/realists-on-the-counter-attack/comment-page-1/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>mattleifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 04:32:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/25/realists-on-the-counter-attack/#comment-25</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s safe to say that BM and QM agree with all known experimental predictions.  In fact, it should not be possible to distinguish BM and QM via any experiment (with one small caveat described below).  The point of BM is that it is designed to agree with the predictions of QM, whenever those are unambiguous.

Why consider BM at all?  Well, I&#039;d argue that it gives us insight into what a hidden variable theory has to look like to reporduce QM and it is a good source of counter-examples for a lot of gumph that people claim about quantum theory.  Advocates would argue that it gives one a clear picture of what is going on in the world, and avoids the ubiquitous measurement-talk of standard interpretations.  On the other hand, the postulation of degrees of freedom that can&#039;t necessarily be directly observed is a good reason for being skeptical in my opinion, although that&#039;s only a cartoon sketch of my reasoning.

For BM to agree with QM something called the &quot;equilibrium hypothesis&quot; has to be true.  If we drop this hypothesis then BM is more general than QM, and makes different predictions.  This is very much like the difference between equilibrium and non-equilibrium statistical mechanics.  However, not observing these discrepancies is no reason for rejecting BM, since we may be in an analog of the &quot;heat death&quot; in which only equilibrium states exist.  I don&#039;t have time to go into this now - maybe in another post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s safe to say that BM and QM agree with all known experimental predictions.  In fact, it should not be possible to distinguish BM and QM via any experiment (with one small caveat described below).  The point of BM is that it is designed to agree with the predictions of QM, whenever those are unambiguous.</p>
<p>Why consider BM at all?  Well, I&#8217;d argue that it gives us insight into what a hidden variable theory has to look like to reporduce QM and it is a good source of counter-examples for a lot of gumph that people claim about quantum theory.  Advocates would argue that it gives one a clear picture of what is going on in the world, and avoids the ubiquitous measurement-talk of standard interpretations.  On the other hand, the postulation of degrees of freedom that can&#8217;t necessarily be directly observed is a good reason for being skeptical in my opinion, although that&#8217;s only a cartoon sketch of my reasoning.</p>
<p>For BM to agree with QM something called the &#8220;equilibrium hypothesis&#8221; has to be true.  If we drop this hypothesis then BM is more general than QM, and makes different predictions.  This is very much like the difference between equilibrium and non-equilibrium statistical mechanics.  However, not observing these discrepancies is no reason for rejecting BM, since we may be in an analog of the &#8220;heat death&#8221; in which only equilibrium states exist.  I don&#8217;t have time to go into this now &#8211; maybe in another post.</p>
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		<title>By: David Booth</title>
		<link>http://mattleifer.info/2006/04/25/realists-on-the-counter-attack/comment-page-1/#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>David Booth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 May 2006 03:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/25/realists-on-the-counter-attack/#comment-24</guid>
		<description>A brief 2 questions. I was under the impression that where BM agreed with QM they both agreed with experiment and that where BM and QM disagree only QM agrees with experiment.
1. Did I remember this correctly?
2. If so, why should we consider BM at all?
Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A brief 2 questions. I was under the impression that where BM agreed with QM they both agreed with experiment and that where BM and QM disagree only QM agrees with experiment.<br />
1. Did I remember this correctly?<br />
2. If so, why should we consider BM at all?<br />
Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: mattleifer</title>
		<link>http://mattleifer.info/2006/04/25/realists-on-the-counter-attack/comment-page-1/#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>mattleifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 May 2006 02:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/25/realists-on-the-counter-attack/#comment-23</guid>
		<description>Well, I was talking about my own personal reasons for not believing the theory, which I&#039;ll go into in another post sometime.  They are more philosophical than physical, in that I don&#039;t think that there is an experimental test to distinguish BM from QM.  I just have a different take on what we should expect to get out of a realist interpretation, and BM doesn&#039;t meet those criteria at present.

In fact, there have been a number of attempts to find a testable contradiction with QM.  These mostly concern &quot;empty waves&quot; and usually rely on unfounded assuptions about Bohmian mechanics.

To be fair, I do think it is one of the more sane interpretations on the table.  It also now has a couple of different reasonable extensions to QFT, which have been developed in the last few years. This was one of the biggest outstanding problems for the theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I was talking about my own personal reasons for not believing the theory, which I&#8217;ll go into in another post sometime.  They are more philosophical than physical, in that I don&#8217;t think that there is an experimental test to distinguish BM from QM.  I just have a different take on what we should expect to get out of a realist interpretation, and BM doesn&#8217;t meet those criteria at present.</p>
<p>In fact, there have been a number of attempts to find a testable contradiction with QM.  These mostly concern &#8220;empty waves&#8221; and usually rely on unfounded assuptions about Bohmian mechanics.</p>
<p>To be fair, I do think it is one of the more sane interpretations on the table.  It also now has a couple of different reasonable extensions to QFT, which have been developed in the last few years. This was one of the biggest outstanding problems for the theory.</p>
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		<title>By: Zomerpeer</title>
		<link>http://mattleifer.info/2006/04/25/realists-on-the-counter-attack/comment-page-1/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>Zomerpeer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Apr 2006 21:20:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://mattleifer.wordpress.com/2006/04/25/realists-on-the-counter-attack/#comment-22</guid>
		<description>&lt;cite&gt;
... this is a far cry from saying that Bohmian mechanics should be taken seriously as a description of reality. There are several arguments against doing so, which would take too long to go into right now.
&lt;/cite&gt;

I am very much interested in the foundations of QM. Could you point me to some relevant books/papers regarding the thing you quoted? For I thought that Bohmian mechanics was consistent with (most) experimental observations?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><cite><br />
&#8230; this is a far cry from saying that Bohmian mechanics should be taken seriously as a description of reality. There are several arguments against doing so, which would take too long to go into right now.<br />
</cite></p>
<p>I am very much interested in the foundations of QM. Could you point me to some relevant books/papers regarding the thing you quoted? For I thought that Bohmian mechanics was consistent with (most) experimental observations?</p>
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